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	<title>Comments on: The Mysterious Appearance of &#8220;Satan&#8221; in English Translations of the Book of Job</title>
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	<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/</link>
	<description>My musings on Biblical Studies, Biblical Hebrew, Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, Popular Culture, Religion, Software, and pretty much anything else that interests me!</description>
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		<title>By: Tyler F. Williams</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-264238</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler F. Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-264238</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey SImon,

I&#039;m not sure the use of Qohelet in Ecclesiastes is parallel since we are not quite sure of what it is; is it an anagram? an epithet? etc.

What I find interesting is that &quot;STN&quot; does become a personal name in later usage. Perhaps as early as 1Chron 21:1 where it doesn&#039;t have the article.

Putting aside the issue of the definite article, there really are no texts in the Hebrew Bible that clearly talk about a chief bad guy demon. The snake in Genesis is not Satan (at least not according to the Hebrew Bible; that the NT and early Christianity interpreted it in that manner is another issue altogether), nor do Isa 14 or Ezek 28 talk of the Devil. You have to wait until some of the Second Temple literature like Enoch before you get a more developed demonology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey SImon,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure the use of Qohelet in Ecclesiastes is parallel since we are not quite sure of what it is; is it an anagram? an epithet? etc.</p>
<p>What I find interesting is that &#8220;STN&#8221; does become a personal name in later usage. Perhaps as early as 1Chron 21:1 where it doesn&#8217;t have the article.</p>
<p>Putting aside the issue of the definite article, there really are no texts in the Hebrew Bible that clearly talk about a chief bad guy demon. The snake in Genesis is not Satan (at least not according to the Hebrew Bible; that the <acronym title="New Testament">NT</acronym> and early Christianity interpreted it in that manner is another issue altogether), nor do <acronym title="Isaiah">Isa</acronym> 14 or <acronym title="Ezekiel">Ezek</acronym> 28 talk of the Devil. You have to wait until some of the Second Temple literature like Enoch before you get a more developed demonology.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-263129</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-263129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is the presence of the article so important?

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job1.pdf

The provided translation for Job 1:6 appears to contain the following equivalencies:

bni e·aleim = sons-of the·Elohim
e·shtn = the·adversary

Curiously, the given translation capitalizes &quot;Elohim&quot; even with the article: &quot;the·Elohim&quot;.

There also appears to be an extended equivalency in the first chapter of Job.  As far as Job was concerned, it seems that &quot;Elohim&quot; (without an article) whom he was &quot;fearing of&quot; in verse 1 is the same as &quot;Yahweh&quot;, who claims Job as &quot;servant-of·me&quot; in verse 8.

The &quot;sons-of the·Elohim&quot; presented themselves before &quot;Yahweh&quot; in verse 6.  The article in &quot;sons-of the·Elohim&quot; doesn&#039;t seem necessarily instructive to me.  English uses &quot;helper words&quot; to make sentences sound better without necessarily changing the meaning of any of the other words.  Are there also &quot;helper words&quot; in written (if not spoken) Hebrew?  Is such the case for the article in &quot;sons-of the·Elohim&quot;?  If so, might it not similarly be the case in &quot;e·shtn = the·adversary&quot;?

Referring to oneself as “The Tyler” would sound weird to native speakers of English.  But so does the &quot;servant-of·me&quot; in a literal translation of Job 1:8.

The same Strong&#039;s number, 430, is used for &quot;Elohim&quot; in Gen 1:1 and for &quot;the·Elohim&quot; in Job 1:6.

Strong _did_ bother to catalog every English helper word, yet apparently made no distinction between &quot;the·Elohim&quot; and &quot;Elohim&quot;.  Does this indicate that the presence or lack of an article with a proper name in the Hebrew text may be more stylistic than substantive?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the presence of the article so important?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job1.pdf</a></p>
<p>The provided translation for Job 1:6 appears to contain the following equivalencies:</p>
<p>bni e·aleim = sons-of the·Elohim<br />
e·shtn = the·adversary</p>
<p>Curiously, the given translation capitalizes &#8220;Elohim&#8221; even with the article: &#8220;the·Elohim&#8221;.</p>
<p>There also appears to be an extended equivalency in the first chapter of Job.  As far as Job was concerned, it seems that &#8220;Elohim&#8221; (without an article) whom he was &#8220;fearing of&#8221; in verse 1 is the same as &#8220;Yahweh&#8221;, who claims Job as &#8220;servant-of·me&#8221; in verse 8.</p>
<p>The &#8220;sons-of the·Elohim&#8221; presented themselves before &#8220;Yahweh&#8221; in verse 6.  The article in &#8220;sons-of the·Elohim&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem necessarily instructive to me.  English uses &#8220;helper words&#8221; to make sentences sound better without necessarily changing the meaning of any of the other words.  Are there also &#8220;helper words&#8221; in written (if not spoken) Hebrew?  Is such the case for the article in &#8220;sons-of the·Elohim&#8221;?  If so, might it not similarly be the case in &#8220;e·shtn = the·adversary&#8221;?</p>
<p>Referring to oneself as “The Tyler” would sound weird to native speakers of English.  But so does the &#8220;servant-of·me&#8221; in a literal translation of Job 1:8.</p>
<p>The same Strong&#8217;s number, 430, is used for &#8220;Elohim&#8221; in <acronym title="Genesis">Gen</acronym> 1:1 and for &#8220;the·Elohim&#8221; in Job 1:6.</p>
<p>Strong _did_ bother to catalog every English helper word, yet apparently made no distinction between &#8220;the·Elohim&#8221; and &#8220;Elohim&#8221;.  Does this indicate that the presence or lack of an article with a proper name in the Hebrew text may be more stylistic than substantive?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-259869</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 05:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-259869</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Personal names in Hebrew do not take the definite article&quot;.

A grammatical search in Accordance verifies what you say, but only because it does not consider our instances in Job to be an example of a personal name. If you want another example, one equally contentious, then how about &quot;&lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; Qoheleth&quot;? Despite the fact that this word is given the definite article in some verses, other verses would appear to be utilising it as a personal name. You can argue that it is definitely not a personal name (as some do) on the basis of the fact that it sometimes has the definite article, but this is circular logic.

Thoughts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Personal names in Hebrew do not take the definite article&#8221;.</p>
<p>A grammatical search in Accordance verifies what you say, but only because it does not consider our instances in Job to be an example of a personal name. If you want another example, one equally contentious, then how about &#8220;<i>the</i> Qoheleth&#8221;? Despite the fact that this word is given the definite article in some verses, other verses would appear to be utilising it as a personal name. You can argue that it is definitely not a personal name (as some do) on the basis of the fact that it sometimes has the definite article, but this is circular logic.</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: BIBBIABLOG &#187; Temi biblici nei blog del mese di marzo</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-259383</link>
		<dc:creator>BIBBIABLOG &#187; Temi biblici nei blog del mese di marzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 06:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-259383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] and for an interesting take on an old problems, did Moses have horns? Tyler Williams also posts an informative post (with a funny Larson cartoon!) about the problem of “Satan” v. “adversary” in the Old [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and for an interesting take on an old problems, did Moses have horns? Tyler Williams also posts an informative post (with a funny Larson cartoon!) about the problem of “Satan” v. “adversary” in the Old [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Satan, Job and Goethe &#171; He is Sufficient</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-259268</link>
		<dc:creator>Satan, Job and Goethe &#171; He is Sufficient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-259268</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...]  Posted on April 5, 2008 by ElShaddai Edwards   Peter Kirk has commented on a post by Tyler Williams on whether and how &#8220;Satan&#8221; appears in the book of Job. Peter writes: Formally, in Job [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Posted on April 5, 2008 by ElShaddai Edwards   Peter Kirk has commented on a post by Tyler Williams on whether and how &#8220;Satan&#8221; appears in the book of Job. Peter writes: Formally, in Job [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gentle Wisdom &#187; Satan in Job</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-259245</link>
		<dc:creator>Gentle Wisdom &#187; Satan in Job</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-259245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Fulthorp has brought my attention back to Tyler Williams&#8217; post The Mysterious Appearance of “Satan” in English Translations of the Book of Job, also discussed by Chris [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fulthorp has brought my attention back to Tyler Williams&#8217; post The Mysterious Appearance of “Satan” in English Translations of the Book of Job, also discussed by Chris [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Bisman</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-258533</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bisman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 04:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-258533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thankyou for the post. I have shown it to many Christian friends. I am a Jew who has studied Christian Theology (challenging for me but moreso for my teachers I think). This issue has been a bugbear of mine for some years... and not just regarding the satan. Christian translators have declined to translate certain Hebrew words in certain places to (IMO) strengthen accepted Christian doctrine. Unfortunately this leads to a terrible lack of clarity as to what our shared Scriptures actually say. This means that interfaith dialogue is often frustrated by us talking about the same texts but from such different perspectives that we talk past and not to each other. 

There are things in Scripture which challenge both Jewish and Christian received doctrine and by confronting the Scriptures as what they are and not what we want them to be we can wrestle with God and so BE Israel. Becoming better Jews and Christians respectively.

Shalom from Dunedin, New Zealand]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankyou for the post. I have shown it to many Christian friends. I am a Jew who has studied Christian Theology (challenging for me but moreso for my teachers I think). This issue has been a bugbear of mine for some years&#8230; and not just regarding the satan. Christian translators have declined to translate certain Hebrew words in certain places to (IMO) strengthen accepted Christian doctrine. Unfortunately this leads to a terrible lack of clarity as to what our shared Scriptures actually say. This means that interfaith dialogue is often frustrated by us talking about the same texts but from such different perspectives that we talk past and not to each other. </p>
<p>There are things in Scripture which challenge both Jewish and Christian received doctrine and by confronting the Scriptures as what they are and not what we want them to be we can wrestle with God and so BE Israel. Becoming better Jews and Christians respectively.</p>
<p>Shalom from Dunedin, New Zealand</p>
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		<title>By: mayfly &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I am quite embarrassed and offer my apology</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-257326</link>
		<dc:creator>mayfly &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I am quite embarrassed and offer my apology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-257326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] not had reason to go back and read anything on related topics. When I saw the posts on Higgaion and Codex, I (arrogantly I see now) even posted a link to &#8220;my&#8221; prior post. After doing so, I [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] not had reason to go back and read anything on related topics. When I saw the posts on Higgaion and Codex, I (arrogantly I see now) even posted a link to &#8220;my&#8221; prior post. After doing so, I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MetaCatholic &#187; The end of Enns to the acme of Aquinas</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-256500</link>
		<dc:creator>MetaCatholic &#187; The end of Enns to the acme of Aquinas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-256500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Williams has a good post on the odd appearance of Satan (as a proper noun) in English translations of Job, which is seconded [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Williams has a good post on the odd appearance of Satan (as a proper noun) in English translations of Job, which is seconded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Satan eller ej : PergaMent</title>
		<link>http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/comment-page-1/#comment-256473</link>
		<dc:creator>Satan eller ej : PergaMent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://biblical-studies.ca/blog/wp/2008/03/26/the-mysterious-appearance-of-satan-in-english-translations-of-the-book-of-job/#comment-256473</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] faldt netop over et interessant indlæg om Satan ovre på Tyler F. Williams fremragende blog &#8220;Codex&#8220;, som illustrerer problemet vældig godt (så må helvede vente til en anden [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] faldt netop over et interessant indlæg om Satan ovre på Tyler F. Williams fremragende blog &#8220;Codex&#8220;, som illustrerer problemet vældig godt (så må helvede vente til en anden [...]</p>
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